16:30 Andrew George (Liberal Democrat)

It is a pleasure, Mr Howarth, to perform under your chairmanship for the first time. I understand that the debate in the House is winding down to a possible vote. I am well aware that this debate, which I am delighted to have secured, has attracted a lot of support across all parties. There is tremendous interest in the matter. The Energy Bill will return to the House for debate, and my concern is whether we will have sufficient opportunity to discuss the matter then. This debate is not so much an early skirmish, but an opportunity to ensure that we begin the process of opening a parliamentary dialogue on a matter that is clearly vital as we take forward an excellent Bill, on which I congratulate the Government. It includes some significant stepping stones in setting out a clear agenda for energy generation in this country to achieve energy security. I am sure many hon. Members will want to contribute to this debate on decarbonisation and lowering carbon emissions from this country’s energy sources.

The debate is timely, today of all days, partly because of last night’s vote in the European Parliament on the European trading scheme. I would be interested in the Minister’s comments on whether he believes that that enhances or makes it more difficult to advance the case for a decarbonisation agenda in the UK. I would argue that it makes it even more urgent for the UK to ensure that we press the agenda firmly.

The debate is also timely because of a matter partly related to the way in which we do business in the House. Yesterday, I was significantly frustrated that we were unable to debate or divide the House on the Government’s proposed abolition, which is shortly to be enacted, of the Agricultural Wages Board. We will have further debates on the Energy Bill and the failure to debate abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board may be an example of how, despite the issue being deeply significant to many hon. Members, including me, we were unable to debate the matter. There was no mechanism by which to divide the House to establish what support exists for that abolition, which was introduced in another place. That worries me, and to ensure that today is not our only opportunity to debate the decarbonisation agenda, will the Minister ensure that when the Energy Bill returns to the House there will be protected time in the Chamber for a proper debate and votes? That is important.

I congratulate the Government, the Minister and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on their significant progress in advancing the case. My intention today is primarily to advance the economic case for green jobs and investment as the fundamental justification and raison d’être for advancing as quickly as possible a decarbonisation agenda in the UK. If we are to corner a growing global market, we must lead the way and ensure that future investment in the manufacture and production of green and decarbonised energy generation. The UK needs to be at the forefront.

The pinch point in the debate on decarbonisation and the setting of targets is that the industry looks in the long term against a political cycle that, by its very nature, is relatively short term—often five years at the most. I congratulate the Government on rightly looking at this vital agenda decades ahead, but the worry is that the political agenda might drive the basis on which decarbonisation targets are met.

The aim of a decarbonisation target is laudable, but does my hon. Friend agree that we should not rush forward with increased proposals for the nuclear option, which might be seen to be an easy option in the long term?

The hon. Lady makes an excellent point. This debate is primarily about the decarbonisation of energy supply; conservation and reducing energy demand is a separate debate. To be fair, the Government have established a strong case through the green deal and the establishment of the green investment bank, which will support many measures to address energy conservation. The hon. Lady makes an excellent point, but this debate is about energy generation and supply, and I do not want it to stray too far.

“that climate change is one of the gravest threats we face”

“We need to use a wide range of levers to cut carbon emissions, decarbonise the economy and support the creation of new green jobs and technologies. We will implement a full programme of measures to fulfil our joint ambitions for a low carbon and eco-friendly economy.”

Does the hon. Gentleman share my frustration that it is three years since the coalition came to power, and to drive the agenda forward, we need things such as targets to create the impetus for some of the measures to be put in place and to create a situation where investors have confidence? At the moment, so much is uncertain about the future of Government energy policy. We have the Treasury driving fracking forward, a lack of targets and the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change criticising the general thrust of energy policy that is being imposed on him by the Treasury. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that certainty is important and that decarbonisation targets are an essential part of that?

I am grateful for your guidance on that, Mr Howarth, and I am particularly grateful to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), for his telling intervention. As he rightly said, this is an issue of hard-headed financial decision-making and not one that is driven purely by eco-warriors. This matter is all about ensuring that we have a strong economy, and in terms of the hundreds of thousands of jobs that will be created through the green economy, Britain must lead the world. It has an opportunity now, but that opportunity will not exist for many years, and if we miss it, we may be dragged behind other places. We will be importing their technologies into this country, and the cost to the economy will be very significant. My hon. Friend is engaged in an excellent campaign on that issue, and I congratulate him for his contribution.

“a decarbonisation target for the electricity sector could increase certainty for investors in large and long term low carbon energy projects like renewables, new nuclear and Carbon Capture and Storage. That is why, last year, I worked for and achieved Government agreement to set a 2030 decarbonisation target range”—

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16:59 Andrew George (Liberal Democrat)

“a target would not be set in isolation but in the context of considering the pathway of the whole economy towards our 2050 target, and making sure we do that in a way that minimises costs both to the economy as a whole and to bill payers.”

The problem with that is that the bulk of industry interested in energy generation and the bulk of investors interested in the future of the energy generation economy do not take the same view. I, of course, have tremendous respect for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State; he acknowledges that it is Liberal Democrat policy to set a decarbonisation target now, rather than in 2016. That target has to be the result of a compromise, and as in any coalition Government in the world, between two coalition parties, we sometimes do not get the outcome that we desire. That is why a large number of interested companies have written to the Chancellor, rather than the Secretary of State, to move the agenda forward, which indicates the target at which the debate needs to be directed.

The UK green economy has continued to grow, even while broader economic activity remains relatively subdued. The CBI has demonstrated that more than one third of UK economic growth last year is likely to have come from green businesses. Renewable and low-carbon energy businesses are the segment of the green economy with the most stake in the 2013 decarbonisation target. Cumulatively, they generate more than £98 billion in sales and employ more than 735,000 people—more jobs than the entire UK automotive and telecoms sectors combined.

Figures from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills demonstrate an average growth rate of 6% each year for that portion of the economy, which equates to some £7 billion of additional sales for UK plc or 6,000 new jobs each year, based on today’s figures. That growth is now placed at risk by a lack of investor certainty and confidence, which a 2030 decarbonisation target would certainly remedy and remove. Setting the target sooner, rather than later, would provide the certainty and confidence that such investors require.

Although the Energy Bill makes significant advances, for which the Government should be congratulated, the difficult compromise that they have come to needs to be teased out and debated further than we have been able to so far. I do not know how we will do it, but we should have a debate with the Department of Energy and Climate Change that includes the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury. When we debate the Bill in the Commons in the coming weeks, it will be a pity that we will not have the opportunity for a full debate with all the Departments on which it will have an impact. I hope the Minister will address my earlier question on the impact of last night’s vote.

That is vital. I welcome that the Government are supporting the wave hub. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is clearly taking a significant role in the future management of the project, which has been handed on from the South West of England Regional Development Agency. It is difficult to scale up to a commercial level from the prototype machines at the demonstration project in Orkney. The Government need to provide the wave hub project with more certainty and address some of the long-term investment issues, some of which feed and bleed into the decarbonisation agenda. I hope that the Minister will visit the wave hub, talk to those involved and address the funding gap, which still exists, to bring the wave devices on to the site.

How does my hon. Friend respond to the statements that, in the 2050 target, the UK has the toughest legally binding emission reduction target in the world and that no other nation on the planet has a 2030 decarbonisation target?

The UK is setting the standard for the rest of the world, and the rest of the world will move in that direction in due course. It is important that there is cross-party agreement that we want to be the greenest Government ever, which is I think part of the coalition agreement that my hon. Friend signed up to. We also want to ensure that the decarbonisation targets that we set will put the UK economy at the forefront of green jobs and investment.

I am afraid that I will not give way, because I am coming to a close. The primary issue is that when the Energy Bill returns to the Floor of the House, I hope that the Minister will give us an opportunity to reflect properly on the economic case for the early setting of a decarbonisation target.

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17:30 Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)

In introducing the debate, the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) said that he was concerned that there might not be enough time to discuss this matter when the Energy Bill returns to the House on Report. One of the problems that many of us who served on the Bill Committee faced was the lack of detail in many areas. We were promised the delivery document in May, and that document might contain a great deal of information. I suspect that there will be pressure to debate many issues on Report, which makes it even more important that we discuss decarbonisation now.

As has rightly been said, the Government made late amendments to the Bill on the decarbonisation target. However, they did not require it to be set, or to be set in 2016, which, according to the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), is the earliest date it can be set. They did not even say that it should be available for 2030, which is merely the earliest date to which it should apply. In essence, there is no provision for a decarbonisation target in the Bill. Even more worryingly, when the Bill was published, the Government announced their gas strategy, which clearly envisaged a substantial number of new gas generation stations. It seems to me that the emissions performance standard in the Bill would allow for the building of new unabated gas stations, even though Ofgem has warned that bills could rise substantially until 2016 should we have a heavy reliance on gas. There could also be a reduction in energy security, so we might have to rely increasingly on imported gas.

The current carbon budget might have to be amended—not downwards but upwards—to allow for the greater emissions that are to be created. Certainly, the Committee on Climate Change has been a strong proponent of the need for a decarbonisation target and is concerned about that very issue. As the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) rightly said, the main reason for a decarbonisation target is to reduce carbon emissions; we must do that if we are going to have any chance of keeping within 2°, as she said. The Committee on Climate Change has made it clear that decarbonising power is the cheapest way of meeting our overall carbon budget. It is important that we give a clear and unequivocal message that we must continue with decarbonisation. It is remarkable that those who are calling for the target include not only those who campaign on climate change but a wide range of industries, which wish to maintain progress on climate change not for political reasons but for hard-headed business reasons. They want to be sure of the future before making very substantial investments in new green energy, and they are looking at investments into the 2020s. Long lead-in periods are involved, and decisions taken now are for massive investments that will not come on stream for many years. They need to be sure that those investments are worth while. There are mixed signals from the Government, which makes business nervous that there will not be the same commitment to renewable energy in future.

I have just explained the mixed signals through the carbon targets, the gas strategy and the failure to set a decarbonisation target. The hon. Gentleman has argued, as Ministers did in Committee, that we have a 2050 target, which no other country has but, as the hon. Member for Brent North rightly pointed out, there is a difference from the past. There is a strong movement towards renewable energy production in Germany and especially in Denmark, which is heavily into wind. In fact, Denmark took over leadership of the wind energy industry from the UK in the 1970s, and has invested heavily in it. It is much more advanced and is clearly going down the renewable route. Professor Mitchell from Exeter university said in our evidence session:

The Government need to make it clear that they intend to proceed with the decarbonisation of energy, as those mixed messages are causing concern. If we are to have green energy for the future, it is crucial that a supply chain is established to help us reap the economic benefits and jobs that come with it. We must not end up, as we have in the past, importing kit—turbines and whatever else—to ensure that we can meet the energy challenges.

I was saying that during our debates on the Energy Bill, Ministers made the point that other countries did not have decarbonisation targets, but those countries are further ahead in creating that supply chain, which is something that we are trying to do almost from scratch. In an evidence session, David Handley of Renewable Energy Systems said:

“The value of a 2030 decarbonisation target, as we heard earlier, is in providing that greater signal to the supply chain, to the entrepreneurs who are looking to invest in new businesses and to the people who are developing projects that there is going to be this long-term market for the products that they are delivering.”—[ Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee , 15 January 2013; c. 57, Q168.]

Many more sites are being looked at for deployment in the 2020s, alongside commercial wave and tidal generation. We must ensure that we send a clear and unambiguous message that we want those developments and will continue to push the decarbonisation of our energy sector. If we fail to do so, we will not reap the economic benefits that are available in the sector. As the hon. Member for St Ives noted, much of the growth at the moment, although low, is coming from green industry. If we fail in this area, we will limit even further our prospects for growth in future.

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17:40 Jim Shannon (DUP)

There is also the issue of cheap coal. The United States is putting a lot of cheap coal on the market, which power stations in the United Kingdom have used. However, by doing so over a period of time, power stations have increased the emissions that they produce. All those things underline the importance of this debate and the need for the decarbonisation of energy generation.

I will make a couple of quick points about wind farms. I also want to put down a marker, because while everyone is committed to green energy—ask anybody in the street or in a constituency and they will say that they are committed to green energy—when it comes to cost they sometimes draw back or have a question mark about it. We have to achieve a balance that can work for everyone. Wind farms on land can create energy, which is important, but what they can also do—if they are not sited in the correct way—is have an impact on people living near them, both visually and by creating noise. Wind farms need to be situated in the right location; perhaps the Minister can discuss that in relation to planning matters.

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17:43 Nia Griffith (Labour)

When we served on the Joint Committee on the draft Climate Change Bill, we heard from manufacturers how much they wanted certainty. They said, “Well, whatever you decide, whatever you do, certainty is what we want. We want to have that message. We want to know exactly what we are doing.”

The decarbonisation of the power sector is vital, not only in its own right but as a contribution to decarbonisation in other sectors, such as transport, industry and buildings. If we delay setting decarbonisation targets, that will lead to an increased reliance on gas. We can all understand why we had North sea gas and why we then imported gas to take over from North sea gas, but can anybody understand why a country would wish to rely so much on imported gas now? First, importing gas contributes to greenhouse gases and the speeding-up of climate change, but secondly, following the oil crisis in the ’70s, surely we must understand the volatility of oil prices and, linked to them, gas prices. In addition, there is increased world demand and the volatility of some nations that supply gas to us. Furthermore, the versatility of gas means that when we do have it there are things that we should be using it for, such as piping it directly to industry or homes.

Mr Gray, I will not digress to discuss that matter, as we want to keep—fairly strictly—to the matter of decarbonisation targets, and it is absolutely vital that we get those targets now. That is because the Government’s position is that no targets will be set until 2016 at the earliest, with no guarantee then as to what those targets might be. Targets are absolutely vital for industry, because we need absolute certainty to encourage investment in low or indeed zero-carbon technologies. We want to get ahead, rather than seeing big investment in green energy components go elsewhere.

I am secretary of the all-party group on steel and metal related industry, and we see huge opportunities for the steel industry in the production of turbines for offshore wind farms and of marine current turbines. Without targets, however, we will lose those opportunities to other countries. The steel industry in this country is facing a real crisis in demand, and certainty about decarbonisation targets now would bolster investment in renewable technologies and help that manufacturing to stay in the UK.

Research by the Institute for Public Policy Research puts paid to the myth that decarbonisation will increase fuel bills. Leaving aside all the disgraceful ways in which the big energy companies exploit the consumer as a result of weak regulation, excessive profits and now, we understand, dubious taxation practices, simply looking at the price of decarbonisation, the conclusions are that increased reliance on electricity generated from gas will cost the consumer more, and that is on conservative estimates of price rises without unpredictable events. Certainty on decarbonisation targets now would be good for the future of the planet, good for manufacturing and good for the consumer.

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17:55 Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)

It is always a pleasure to stand opposite the Minister, although I am slightly disappointed that the other, new, part-time Energy Minister—the third Energy Minister in six months—is not here, because his other part-time responsibility is in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and publications coming out of that Department have highlighted the important role that decarbonisation and the green, low-carbon economy needs to play in having a target and a direction for the future.

Some are concerned about the extent to which decarbonisation and the green agenda are pushing up electricity prices. The shadow Minister says that he is keen to have sufficient time to discuss all the issues on Report, so would he support having two days on Report?

I have mentioned the other responsibilities of the new Energy Minister. The hon. Member for St Ives rightly focused on the business case, and the jobs and growth case, for the decarbonisation target, but there are other strong arguments. My hon. Friends the Members for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) made the climate arguments. There are also important security-of-supply arguments about why this is sensible.

Neither was it in the Labour party manifesto. Rather than trading points, I want to speak on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert), because he cannot speak in this debate, and say that we should ensure that this agenda is shared across all parties. It is led, as the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) knows, by a Conservative Member. Although I cannot speak for the Conservatives, there is an economic agenda in favour of decarbonisation. That needs to be emphasised at this stage and we need cross-party consensus for it.

It is not strictly accurate to suggest that there are not targets elsewhere in Europe and across the world, because those countries are seized of the growth and job opportunities that come with the imperative to decarbonise the power sector. Those of us on the Energy Bill Committee heard repeatedly—others will have heard this in subsequent letters—that business is seeking clarity of purpose beyond the scope of this Government and of this Parliament and the next, towards 2030.

I agree. We are grappling with the legislation because we do not know the detail of how that will operate. Again, in Committee we received assurance from the then Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), that that will be forthcoming, but it has not yet emerged. Not only can we not scrutinise it, but the companies, to which the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) was going to refer before he had to truncate his speech, cannot.

Finally, Ministers speak about setting a decarbonisation target, as the Deputy Prime Minister did on the very afternoon that we moved amendments in Committee that the Liberal Democrats failed to support, but that is not to say that this is about setting a target. As others have said, it is about the power perhaps to set a target. The Government may set a target, but they might not. The longer this goes on, all we are doing is storing up lack of certainty, which means that the costs will not necessarily come down as fast as they might and that we cannot get the benefit of jobs and growth from the shift to the green economy that is happening—and it will have to happen in any case.

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18:04 The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)

Most of all, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on securing this debate and on opening with a tour d’horizon on the energy sector with a clear focus on decarbonisation. He is right in so many respects on the Government’s ambition and direction. In less than three years, we have put in place many of the key building blocks of a greener, cleaner energy economy of which both coalition partners can be rightly proud.

Year-on-year, offshore wind capacity was up 60% and solar PV capacity was up 500% in 2011-12. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) is chortling, but in the past six months we have added more than half a gigawatt of solar. That totally flies in the face of the Opposition’s doom-mongering and scaremongering. The Government have a record of deployment and real action of which we can be proud, but we are absolutely clear that we will always consider the interests of the consumer. We will always consider who is actually paying. We do not believe in going green at any price; we believe that there is a fair balance between value for money and achieving our vital climate goals.

It is interesting that I do not think that I have heard anyone in this debate refer to consumers, to consumer bills or to the ability of the British taxpayer to shoulder the subsidies that are necessary to pay for this agenda. As hon. Members know, I am a great champion of greening our economy. I am one of the few Members present who played a part in the passage of the Climate Change Act 2008, which is one of the proudest moments of my parliamentary life to date. I am absolutely committed to that, but we have to reconcile the difficult challenge of cost and delivery.

The Prime Minister has been emphatic. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives mentioned that we are the greenest Government ever. That was the Prime Minister’s pledge when he visited the Department of Energy and Climate Change on day four of the Government, and he reiterated the pledge only a matter of weeks ago to the Royal Society:

“we are in a global race and the countries that succeed in that race, the economies…that will prosper are those that are the greenest and the most energy-efficient… it is the countries that prioritise green energy that will secure the biggest share of jobs and growth.”

There is no fundamental difference between the two sides of the House in our direction, destination or determination to meet the goals that are embedded in the Climate Change Act. In fact, there is not so much between us on the decarbonisation target, either. We have tabled an amendment to the Energy Bill that will allow us to set a decarbonisation target alongside the fifth carbon budget, and I will go on to address that in detail.

No, I will not, I am afraid. I greatly welcome the closer alignment with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. I cheered the last Government when they created a separate Department of Energy and Climate Change. It is a good thing, but it must also be a good thing, as he pointed out, to have much closer alignment between BIS and DECC. The appointment of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) to the important job of Energy Minister, much as it will stretch him, sends a clear signal about the central importance of the low-carbon economy to British growth and our long-term growth prospects, as the Prime Minister said and every Member who has spoken in the debate has pointed out. The CBI supports the agenda, and there is wider support for the low-carbon economy that goes way beyond certain renewable energy technologies. It offers export and other business opportunities requiring little or no subsidy, and it has a great deal of its own momentum.

We will return to the decarbonisation target when the Bill returns to the Commons on Report after the Queen’s Speech. I know that some hon. Members have argued that we should go further and set a target now, to provide greater certainty to investors. I understand that argument—I listened carefully to the contributions made in the evidence session before the Bill Committee—and I see the strong merit of the argument for a decarbonisation target. That is why we are introducing measures in the Bill to create such a target. However, we must also resist the temptation to think that life is about targets. Surely, we learned our lesson under the last Government. Simply setting targets does not deliver results. If this Government are about anything, we are about deployment, results and driving real change in real time, and our record demonstrates that we are capable of doing that.

As we set out in the carbon plan in December 2011, it is likely that, as well as decarbonising electricity generation, meeting our 2050 target will require the electrification of a significant amount of heat and transport in the UK. In turn, that will not only affect overall demand for electricity but require us to take into account when that electricity is needed. For instance, when will people want to charge electric vehicles? Heat demand changes seasonally and over the course of a single day. All those things must be taken together when we consider the best way to decarbonise electricity as part of a least-cost route to meeting our obligations under the Climate Change Act 2008.

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